The long-awaited new novel of the Turkish Nobel laureate Orhan Pamuk, "Nights of the Plague", will appear in a few days in Montenegrin bookstores, in the edition of New Book.
Pamuk tells his story about the plague epidemic that broke out in the spring of 1901 on the fictitious island of Mingeria in the Ottoman Empire. Critics point out that readers are presented with a vivid panoramic picture of the last days of the Ottoman Empire: from the fear of death to the opposition to the health lockdown, from the Tekian sheikhs to Greek nationalists, from pilgrimage ships to rebellions against quarantine, with the inevitable consideration of fundamental questions of life, death and love.
About the new novel, but also about his literature, today's Turkey and all its controversies, the (in)visible border between East and West on the Bosphorus, his plan to write the second part of his autobiographical records - a sequel to "Istanbul", his plan to come to Montenegro again, where in 2017 he received the New Book Award "Literary Flame" for "Vijesti" exclusively from Istanbul, says Orhan Pamuk.
Your latest novel, "Noci kuge", will soon be published by your Montenegrin publisher, Nova knjiga, thanks to whom we have the opportunity to read all your novels. And you are again the target of attacks in your country, this time because of a new novel and an alleged insult to Ataturk. How did that happen?
I was very happy during my two-day stay in Montenegro - I enjoyed the surprises, the irony, the fairytale of a small country with a relatively small population. And this stay of mine left its mark on the new novel - "Nights of the Plague", which also talks about a country with a population of less than a million citizens. Finally - "Nights of Plague" is a story about the creation of a small nation; it's not the most important, essential story, but I'm fascinated by countries with small populations. Somehow, I was fascinated by this topic even in my childhood, I like to read books about small countries, kings, maybe this is connected with the fact that Turkey was not the center of the world... The ironies, the fairy-tale qualities of small nations, small countries are important to me and that's why my visit to Montenegro was a good inspiration for a new novel. At one of the events organized in my honor in 2017 in Montenegro, there were about 600 people and I thought - one of the 1.000 inhabitants of this country was at my event, I always say that in society.
When it comes to Ataturk, it is a baseless attack in a country where there is no freedom of speech, where everyone is looking to put the other in jail, especially if they criticize the government. Then they go out of their way to make up lies to put pressure on you in cases like this. My lawyer says it won't be a big deal, but I'm worried sometimes, we'll see...
Many people are in prison just because of what they said, there is no democracy in Turkey, except when the ballot is put in the ballot box. Democracy is true when there is freedom of speech, but it is not when you jail journalists who criticize the government, when so many people are under pressure just for expressing their beliefs, it is terrible here. I don't think I'll end up in jail for this, I've been writing novels in Turkey for 45 years and I've always been in trouble for my interviews, not for my novels; first time i'm in trouble for a novel. There is no basis for that because I did not insult Kemal Ataturk, I am not a cynical person, I love Ataturk, and they claim the opposite and repeat that I insulted him. They open a case, judgments and think they will scare me. Well, they won't scare me.
You've been writing this novel for five years, but you've been thinking about it for four decades. In several previous books - "Silent House" and "White Fortress" traces of this great theme can be seen, but you said that it took you 35 years to research and psychologically prepare for this novel. Why?
I have always been fascinated by the idea of the plague, one of my characters in the novel "Silent House" investigates the plague, in "The White Fortress", which takes place in the 17th century in Istanbul, the plague is raging... I was interested in the topic for many reasons, many reasons, primarily existential. When everyone dies, it's convenient to ask questions about metaphysics, religion, death, its fatality, and all that. Later I decided to write a novel about the introduction of quarantine, while I was completely occupied with writing this novel, the corona virus epidemic suddenly broke out and I was upset because I thought that everyone would believe that I wrote "Nights of the Plague" because of the pandemic, and I about it I mean almost 40 years. Then I wrote a long article, which was published in the "New York Times" and in many other places, and explained since when I was writing the novel and my attitude towards the plague and the epidemic.
Epidemics have been written about by many; how much did they inspire or help you in processing the topic?
Many wrote about the epidemic and the plague, the most famous being Albert Camus and his "The Plague", I read it when I was 19 and I liked it, but my approach to the pandemic - unlike Camus - is concrete. He was not interested in the details of the introduction of quarantine, for him the plague is a metaphor for the Nazi occupation of France and for him it is a reaction to the plague, in fact a reaction to Nazism - some people behaved bravely, some selfishly, some were ambushed, some showed solidarity and joined the movement against the plague. But, for me, the topic is the introduction of quarantine, how the government uses force and the army to impose quarantine and successfully restrict free movement.
What are the themes of this novel about an ancient pandemic? Do you think that people react equally to such crises, regardless of the historical era?
I think people show similar reactions whenever a pandemic happens, regardless of whether it happened 2.000 years ago, whether it was the Black Death, cholera, or the last two years, the corona virus. There are certain phrases that humanity repeats everywhere, which are almost clichés. The first is denial - people first deny everything, then start rumors - where did it come from, who brought it here. After denials and rumors - because governments and doctors do not react in time - hopelessness sets in - people wander around aimlessly. The fourth reaction follows when people realize that the government is not strong enough, they try to save bare life, instead of saving the community, they become very egoistic, families fall apart, children are terrified because their parents disappear, it enters a kind of anarchy, chaos... And there is and a huge fright, but these are things that happen every time.
Why is this pandemic different from the plague I'm writing about - my novel takes place in 1901 and in 100 years humanity has been educated, almost everyone today knows how to read and write, they know what a virus is, a microbe, what a doctor is and what to do, they know it's contagious…
Another important novel about the plague pandemic, apart from Camus, is "The Diary of a Plague Year" Daniel Defoe which tells about the plague in London in 1655. It is the best book ever written, a novel that describes human nature and how we react in a pandemic, and there you see everything we do - denial, rumours, accusing others, criticizing the government, but also its weaknesses and the flaws of the state apparatus everything is very delicately and wisely described in that novel.
Actually, the idea of this novel is to show the Ottoman Empire in decline, which is not powerful in its peripheries, small islands, in the eastern provinces and is not able to successfully impose quarantine, which leads to political events, but I don't want to go into those details and I discover the end of the novel. My idea was to set the novel in a small country that is a dominion or colony of the empire and show how they react to it.
In this novel, you explore not only the reactions of the human community to a deadly disease, but also how a new order is created to counter a powerful, deadly epidemic. Do you expect a new order after the corona virus pandemic?
Our world is changing, but we refuse to believe it.
Is it a positive change?
First of all, if you have read about previous major pandemics you know that after each one there is an uprising, this has already happened in the US - today it is said that it is related to the poor treatment of black people, in the future they will say that it is partly related to mistreatment people of color, but that it is also deeply connected to the emergence of the pandemic. But we are not aware of it now, history is something that gets its true meaning from historians. Future historians will say that the uprising in America is related to the corona virus, while they don't say that today.
You once said: literature is about humanity. Do you still think so?
Of course, there is no literature without it, even when, as Lafontaine, you write about animals - we are not talking about lions birds, even in stories about animals we are talking about human nature. There is no deeper and greater theme than our humanity. Literature is designed, especially modern, to talk about the fact that we are also very similar - from Korea to Argentina, from Canada to Australia, from Asia to America, human beings have a similar heart, behave is similar and that is the great power of literature. If Montej, I or any other writer writing about himself, knows that he is speaking to all mankind because he is aware that other people behave as he does. Literature is the great art of telling stories about yourself, knowing that your readers will think you're writing about them. In the end, writing a novel is the great art of talking about yourself in such a way that the reader thinks I'm writing about him, or writing about others in such a way that the reader thinks I'm secretly confessing my secrets to him.
Why does all your books seem to have a melancholy emotion running through them?
Maybe because my character is like that, I'm a melancholic person, I'm the way I am, but I'm not sad all the time. There are also moments when I am very happy, manic, full of vitality and I think that in that respect I am the same as all other writers. Most of the creative artists and writers I've met are sometimes very happy, sometimes very depressed, and I'm a lot like them too.
I read that your study window overlooks the Bosphorus, the line that separates Europe and Asia. This feature is metaphorically present in your books - the contradiction between Islam and modernity, the desire to be part of Europe...
Here is the Bosphorus, you can see it…
You have a great view... I saw the exhibition of photos you took from your window in Istanbul...
Now I'm showing you the Bosphorus live...
You ask me about the controversy between Islam and modernity and the desire to be part of Europe. These are topics that are very important to me - Islam and democracy, how to be part of Europe, it is so important to me that I don't know what to say... I spent my life dealing with these topics. First of all, I think that Islam and democracy are incompatible, I don't think that one day an Islamic country will be fully democratic - and I am not a religious person. That's one thing.
Turkey is already a geographical part of Europe and has been for many, many years. But here we are talking about being part of the European Union, political Europe; unfortunately Turkey is not part of the EU. In the second half of the 1990s and early 2000s, I traveled around the world, as my books became more popular and famous, I gave interviews to promote my novels, but I also did it to promote Turkey, saying that it should become part of the EU because that was my sincere conviction. It didn't work, I don't think Turkey will join the EU quickly, Turkey has regressed and undermined democracy over the past five years. I think there is no welcome for Turkey in the EU.
Do you think the Balkans will soon become part of the EU or do we have the same fate?
No, I think the Balkans will be more successful in that - the Balkan countries are - compared to Turkey - smaller, although they are not fully democratic and have problems, the EU looks at them more strategically, geopolitically... They think: we can reform them, Montenegro does not have a big population, we can make them ours... But I can't say that for 80 million Turks. Here again the size of the country and its population is what matters, and I say again that the small population is what fascinates me.
Does Montenegro fascinate you?
Yes...you asked me when I will come again, I don't know when, but I will come...I want to enjoy a fairy-tale, small country again, like the island of Mingeria, which I write about in my novel "Nights of the Plague".
While in your country you experience condemnations and controversies, even public burning of books, in the Western world you are perceived as the most important Eurasian writer.
I hope they will continue to judge me like this, but not for political reasons, but because they enjoy my novels.
How much is the writer defined by the geography of birth?
Very, very much…I am divided between East and West, in my early years, when I was 25, it was a negative thing - you either had to be a total Westerner or a complete religious, traditional, Islamic Ottoman. I didn't know what to do, but when I realized that these two ideas, two different geographies, make me more intelligent, when I realized that these two sources make me wiser, I found a solution to my intellectual and literary problems. I solved the intellectual problems by accepting the geographical situation of Turkey, accepting the fact that I am both Asian and European, traditional in the sense that I respect traditional culture and that I desire the European way of life even more. My contradictions, criticism, political problems, hatred and death threats I get from some right-wingers and nationalists are also related to this. In this sense, I am ambitious - I want to deeply belong to Turkey and I deeply want Turkey to be part of the EU, maybe these are contradictory desires that I keep inside me, in my spirit all my life.
I want to write the second part of my autobiography, the first part was published in Montenegro - "Istanbul", now I am thinking and planning to write the first sentence of the second volume, which will be titled "East-West Memoir" - "East-West Memoir". All the contradictions felt by my character Ka from the novel "Snow" will be contained there. What Ka wants in that novel - he wants to belong to the people, he is an egalitarian, he wants to be like his people, to be that, they tell him he has to be religious, and he doesn't want that, he wants to be modern, European, that are the contradictory feelings that Ka experiences in my novel, in that small town. I am still experiencing it, and that is why the second volume of the memoir will be about how we can simultaneously inherit both Eastern and Western, traditional and modern ideas, sincerely believing in them. And to show some funny, interesting consequences of everything, a picture of life in Turkey, in my part of the world, that's what I plan to do now.
Why do writers often have a problematic relationship with their compatriots?
If you are honest and a good writer, you criticize your country, your culture, more importantly - the government... It is easy to criticize the Turkish government because it makes so many mistakes - there is no free speech, they are authoritarian, the current government has destroyed good relations with the EU, etc. It is easy to criticize them. It is not enough that they attack you politically, they also burn your books, you become the subject of investigations and court cases; as long as I've had them, I always talk to lawyers, who assure me not to worry, that everything will be fine, but it all went over my head, I'm fed up with everything...But, I will continue to do more!
This happens to all writers, who are honest and who even criticize a little. There is also a moment of jealousy - why not say with pride, my books have always been bestsellers in my country, they sell more than anyone else's, so even though I am constantly under attack, I am a happy writer - the Turkish audience has given me credit by recognizing me , reading me, reacting to my books, which are constantly being published, and I am very happy about that. I will summarize - there is no such thing as a completely happy writer. If you are successful, they attack you, there is no end to these things.
Considering your statements about the genocide of Armenians and Kurds, how should we face the "black holes" of our history?
We need to talk about the black holes in our histories and identify with them, be honest about them. If someone is really bravely honest on the subject, they shouldn't be attacked. There are many who don't want to talk about many things, okay, I understand them too, but if I criticize her, please don't attack me!
Are you an Istanbul writer, beautifying your city?
Of course I'm a writer from Istanbul, I've lived my whole life here, I belong here. I am happy to be connected with my City. But here, in this new novel "Nights of the Plague", it is not about Istanbul - the City; Istanbul is a longing here, we are outside of it. I took some monuments, some mosques or small geographical details from Istanbul and transferred them to my island. All this in the belief that my readers will not read the book just because it is about Istanbul.
In your novel "My name is red", the painter's view of the world and life is a kind of distinction between modernity, the West and Europe and his part of the world - the East, Istanbul, the Ottoman Empire?
Until I was 22, I wanted to be a painter and I was the black sheep in my engineering family, convinced that I would be a great painter. But that didn't happen. As I described it in "Istanbul", I killed myself, I stopped painting, it was a self-imposed obligation, almost cruel. I started writing novels, and when I became famous both in Turkey and internationally, I decided to write about painters. "My name is red" is an honest book, from the heart, so although I wrote very honestly about painters, I also wrote about the relationship between East and West, which is a big topic. There is no great tradition of Turkish painting, it is very limited, because Islam forbids the depiction of human beings. And we all want to see pictures, they are so lovely, we want to see faces, a moment captured in time, like a passport picture...You can't stop it, not even religion can forbid it. "My name is red" also talks about why government and religion can prohibit portraiture. We humans don't care about that, we want to see pictures. For me, images are a machine that creates desires - you see a picture of something and you want to go to that place, you see a picture of someone, you want to be like that, we're happy because someone made something like that.
I am a visual writer, a visual person, for me seeing is living, the oldest thing, when I think of death, is that I will not be able to see, I will be buried in the ground. When I was a child, that was the thing that bothered me the most because I wouldn't be able to see the world. I wrote "My name is red" also for the pleasure of talking about painting, traditional and modern, perspective, changing style, etc.
Is your literature a "miraculous combination of oriental narrative tradition with elements of European modernism", as the Western media describe your work?
Thanks for the wonderful rating, I don't know, others say that... But you don't know how hard I work, I'm a hard worker. In March 2020, the pandemic happened, everyone shouted to lock ourselves up, not to go out anywhere, not even to touch the newspaper so as not to get infected... I did the same, because I am 69 years old now, I was worried. But I was also happy because I had been writing a new novel on that topic for three years - about quarantine, infection, what to do, fear of death, I worked for 11 months for 10 hours to finish the novel... I don't know if it's miraculous , but it is the result of hard work, I put a lot of effort and effort into my books...I say this to avoid the rating of miraculous, but at the same time I like it.
Do you feel safe in Turkey, considering the alleged conspiracy of ultranationalists to kill several political figures, some intellectuals, including you?
I have a running joke on this topic: I used to have three bodyguards, now I only have one - Turkey is improving, this is proof of that!
Erdogan's Turkey as a shadow of the Ottoman Empire
Is Europe so different from Turkey, and is it possible for Turkey to be modern with an Islamic government?
First of all, I would not say Islamic, but Islamist government. Islamists consciously make religious propaganda to get political votes. It's complicated. There are Islamists in the world who sometimes manage to be modern, and there are those who are by definition completely against modernity. There are Islamists in Turkey who argue that there is a non-European modernism. But this Turkish government is unsuccessful. Let me give you an example: we were looking at the Bosphorus a little while ago, and Erdogan built a mosque nearby, which he thinks will be Erdogan's mosque after his death. If Erdogan's Islamist party really wanted to be modern, they would build a mosque in a modern architectural style, that would not make them less Muslim and less religious. On the contrary, it would make them more Muslim and more modern. Can they pull it off - no. They are imitating the Ottoman glory and talking about it, they are not as strong as the Ottomans. When the European ruling parties accuse Erdogan of Islamism and Ottoman behavior, they are very happy, and they are not even a shadow of the Ottomans because they have no strength. Turkey is disintegrating economically, the Ottomans were powerful and fought with Europe, and today's Turkey is neither politically nor economically strong.
Andrić had a lot of influence on me, I also enjoyed Kiš
Do you know the work of writers from the former Yugoslavia?
Ivo Andrić had a great influence on me, he so delicately portrayed the past and the present, the Ottomans and the Serbs, all the former Yugoslavs, history... He was gentle, nice, when he wrote about the Ottomans he did not act like an orientalist - they were cruel , but with him, in addition, there are also human beings. Andrić is very popular in Turkey, because he was a refined, cultured man, who did not see the world in black and white, but was a subtle observer, who paid close attention to the humanity of all his characters.
Also, I really enjoyed reading Danilo Kish, his book "The Garden, Ashes", I like Kish's obsession with his father.
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