We are now, in the year 2024, closer to the ideology and attitude towards women from the beginning of the 20th century than to the one after 1945, when we won the right to vote, among the first in the world, states the Montenegrin artist and designer in an interview for "Vijesti" Tijana Todorovic.
Rummaging through the past and laying bare the present while summarizing the struggle and position of women, as a costume designer, performer and part of the creative team, Todorović was (was) engaged in the Slovenian theater play "Sexual Education II" directed by Tjaše Črnigoj which was co-produced by: Slovensko mladinsko gledališče, Maska Ljubljana and Mesto žensk, Ljubljana. It was this play that marked the theater and social space (in Slovenia) last year, points out the Society of Theater Critics and Theatrologists of Slovenia, which declared this play the best in 2023. In addition to that award, "Sex Education II" also won numerous other awards, after a thorough two-year field, research, documentary, and activist work.
"This is a story about the state, unity, social protection, love, sex, health insurance, equality and rights, this is a story about violence, a story about courage and the bodies of different women...", are the words that begin the theater piece that continues branches in different directions thus starting numerous, mostly neglected topics and problems...
Tijana Todorović talks about the play itself, the creation process, theater in general, but also about the situation in Montenegro, the fight for women's rights, the legacy of patriarchy, Yugoslavia and the influence of various socio-political currents.
How would you describe "Sex Education II", that is, bring the play closer to the Montenegrin public? What is she telling us about, how is she conceived?
The idea for the play came as a reaction - a response to the then current events, better known as the so-called "Balkan MeToo" movement. The moment when women from the region came forward and shared their difficult experiences was so powerful. The Balkan Me Too is a very important step towards the liberation of women, as well as the emancipation of society, but also a sobering of the kind of societies we live in. By following those shocking events, gruesome stories about the degradation and dehumanization of women in circles where it is least expected, Tjaša's thinking about what would later become "Sexual Education II" was initiated. Our stories are woven from true testimonies, interviews, statements, documentation on the topic of female sexuality and rights. In the plays, we do not analyze or use the statements that were made during the aforementioned affair, we focused our attention on topics that seemed important to us, women who have no voice or visibility in public, and are often taken for granted. These are all those stories that are kept silent, stories of equality, people with disabilities, discrimination, unconventional practices, Yugoslavia, the 1974 constitution... The play is best described by the introductory text, which we address to the audience at the beginning of the play:
This is a story about the state, unity, social protection, love, sex, health insurance, equality and rights, this is a story about violence, a story about courage and the bodies of different women...
It is rarely talked about, both in public and, unfortunately, in the theater as well... Can you single out some segments that best refer to the importance of the play, topicality, engagement?
Some of the topics saw the light of day for the first time. Thus, for example, "Diagnosis" talks about the experience of women during a painful spasm in the pelvic floor, in which, according to our associate from the profession, Dr. Gabriele Simetinger, collect all life's fears. The cause of this painful condition cannot be determined with certainty, and even 40 percent of women suffer from it in some form.
While the play "Sposobnost" brings life stories about love and satisfaction of women with disabilities. This topic almost does not exist in the theater or in public, and women with disabilities are discriminated against at least twice every day: first as women, and then as persons with disabilities. It is our obligation to work on raising awareness and inclusion in every segment of society. The quality of the series is not only reflected in documentary, but also in education.
The last lecture/performance, "The Struggle", talks about our common past and history, which contains many explanations and answers for the problems we are living now. We treated this topic without pathos and Yugonostalgia, but very clearly, documentarily and precisely, from a healthy distance and without a trace of revisionism or fanfare. We brought a story about reform, laws, struggle and, most importantly, about the importance of that struggle, which has not stopped even to this day. We got all the rights we have as women in Yugoslavia, the fight for those rights was not easy. It took a long time, about 25 years of work, commitment, and education were necessary for the right to abortion to enter the constitution, and its deletion from the constitution took one day.
I believe that this play is also important because of the artistic means and decisions, as the selector of Borštnik's meeting, professor and dramatist would say. Blaž Lukan, young people today are not interested Chekhov, but the world that his text opens up... We could present the play "Sexual Education II" at the eminent Viennese festival, it may not be so radically militant, it does not go to the barricades, but it is very sensitive with a clear attitude.
The performance was conceived as a series of lectures, and based on a longer fieldwork, research, and documentary work... What was the experience like for you and what makes this process, and thus the performance of the piece itself, stand out?
The experience of working on this project is what makes it extra special. This was an exciting journey, wandering and finding both in the process of assembling the concept and in searching for an adequate expression for each topic individually. What I would like to emphasize, even though I have collaborated with the director Tjaša Črnigoj before, is that this process was special for us, very important for the improvement of our cooperation, as well as the shaping of our artistic vision. The principle of work brought new experiences in the way of collecting materials, articulation, selection and accentuation of key information. The principles and strategies in the work changed depending on the topic, we must not forget that the series "Sexual education II", in addition to being documentary-performative, is also educational in nature. During the creation of the plays, we worked a lot on the field and on the stage, during this process we got closer, learned a lot, both from the interlocutors, and from each other. The work took place in stages, individually and in groups. Seen from this point of view, I cannot decide what was more exciting, the search for interlocutors or the realization. We were all involved in the search for interlocutors, that part of the job was not at all easy, regardless of how liberal an environment is, it is difficult to find those who are ready to speak on these, not at all simple, topics.
During my work, I experienced some wonderful moments and transformations, inside and outside my comfort zone, even in some parts I appear as a performer, and that is a special value and wealth that I have acquired.
Some situations that make this work successful are still unimaginable for us, namely absolute trust, understanding, encouragement of authorship and individuality from which no one felt threatened, complete freedom from vanity and any kind of egoism. During the work on this series, we went through various stages, but the support and joy, as well as the encouragement to work within the group, are perhaps the most important reward of all.
You open new "horizons of feminist expression in public", which ultimately provides insight into "brutal control and (covert) violence" against women and women's bodies. Slovenian theaters and artists have been dealing with these topics for a long time, I would note. What is the situation in that field in Montenegro and how much are the so-called women's, but actually general human issues, whether in the theater or in art in general?
That's right, Slovenia doesn't stop fighting. One of the pieces of evidence is Article 55 of the Slovenian Constitution (from 1991). After the disappearance of Yugoslavia, Slovenian politicians (dominantly men) tried to remove the right to abortion from the Constitution, however, with great resistance, demonstrations, and various actions in culture, that right has remained written down to this day. Just look at the international campaign "My voice, my choice", an initiative, a good part of the campaign (which reached support from the Oscars), is led by Slovenian women, that is, the March 8 Institute. So your observation is correct, in Slovenia they motivate each other to be better, not to give up.
It's no secret that the world of theater is predominantly male, even often women take over male principles in their work (dominance, pyramidal structure, communication, tone, often mobbing). In this way they establish authority. Such dynamics are transferred to work and performances, and very often discrimination on/off stage is signed by women.
In Montenegro, as for example in Croatia, as I can say from recent experience, such issues are more difficult to open or not enough. We find ourselves in a gap between searching for authentic expression and facing it. There are plays and artists who deal with these topics, but they are given too little space or are labeled too quickly. We saw what happened in Nikšić recently, such things are unimaginable in the advanced world, and if they do happen, they will be punished most severely. We lack perseverance, thorough work, courage, and sometimes work ethic. It seems to me that sometimes we enter into projects like this for the wrong reasons, under the charge of individualism and proving ourselves, sometimes we are overtaken by desire, and very often our only goal is to be liked. And when that is the case, then there is not much hope for progress, not only in this domain but also in art in general.
What is the correspondence between patriarchy and traditional social norms on the one hand and the so-called modern age, democracy and liberalism on the other, when it comes to the position of women, women's rights, sexuality, reproductive rights, (self) realization, etc.? How do different political currents, ideologies and ideas, events and crises affect the general situation in this field, in Montenegro, in the region?
They influence a lot, more than we think and what it seems to us. Just look at the relationship and position of women in Montenegro. All that we are living now is the result of decades of negligence, dominant patriarchy in all segments of society and at all times. It is not enough that only NGOs deal with human rights, that struggle must come from the top. By example, practice and law. And above all, education. We are now, in the year 2024, closer to the ideology and attitude towards women that was current at the beginning of the 20th century, than to the one after 1945, when we won the right to vote, among the first in the world. With us, things exist exclusively declaratively. We take the story of human rights lightly, and that is because our values have not been instilled in the education system.
I also had an interesting work experience in Croatia, with Tjaša, the Collective of Actresses, we did the documentary play "Cure". The idea was to make a documentary based on the material they would receive from today's girls in Croatia. We were interested in what it's like to be a teenager today, what it's like to grow up and live your most sensitive years when the "right-wing" view of women, kneelers and extreme views of the church on reproduction is on the rise, health insurance has changed with increasingly frequent calls to conscience from doctors... During the process we decided to turn the angle of viewing this topic. We decided to tell the story of three generations of women - teenage girls, our grandmothers, mothers and our generation, with an open question and a look into the future and at today's girls. Reactions to this play are varied, from as many as five awards we received for this play in Serbia, to a strange relationship at an eminent festival in Croatia. However, all that is unimportant, we must not give up and be afraid of the reaction, we must tackle the problems and shoot at the core. If there is no resistance, but not resistance for the sake of resistance, but a grounded reaction in defense of basic human rights, with the addition of quality and freshness, we are in a state of coma.
It seems to me that Montenegro is somewhere, we are awake, but we are rebellious, there is no way we dare to deal with injustices. I would like to use this opportunity to praise the work and efforts of all the organizations that started the protests, contributed and gave reactions due to the judgments of the Court of Appeal, femicide, every form of violence against women... It is incomprehensible to me how in these situations, professors, parents, do not lead children to those events (or they are such in small numbers). It is the only way to change consciousness and work for the good of society and the state, in those situations everything becomes unimportant, even our favorite topic - politics. We need to start focusing on what is most important, which is the only non-renewable resource - people. During one of those protests, I remember that I wrote a comment about how I learned this life lesson in Ljubljana, in a painting class, when the teacher entered the class and took us to the protests, there were not many of us that day, but already the next doubled.
"Sexual education II" marked the theater and social space last year (in Slovenia), it is emphasized in the explanation regarding the award. It is also stated that it is an "extraordinary political gesture that (was) necessary and important, but equally unpleasant and painful". Does the theater, especially today, have to carry activist involvement and refer to the socio-political reality in order to more openly point out the reality we live? In addition, as "unpleasant and painful", does it more strongly open the eyes to the realization of the real situation?
It is not necessary, but it is desirable to have one. It's nice prof. Lukan explained talking about the youth and Chekhov. A question of decision and path selection (comfort or not). It is paradoxical that the more developed the country, the stronger the note of engagement, and where there is greater oppression, the lack of courage is evident. But somehow, that's how I see the problem of our Montenegrin scene, but also of some surrounding countries. No way to step forward. As far as Montenegro is concerned, it is very interesting (I also wrote about this in my PhD) when we literally did not have a mixer for lighting in the entire country, money for the stage, the army transported troops to Titograd with its planes and at that time we could see the most advanced plays. But good plays were made. Today, when we live in abundance, budgets, fees are never higher, technology is never more available, and we are trapped. We want too much to be liked, to be praised, to succeed and then burn out from that desire. There are alternative currents, there is a need for engagement, that path is much more difficult, it requires great sacrifices, it is more difficult to reach the audience, and then, in the absence of support or infrastructure, art suffers. The results are achievable, but they are reached slowly. But, be that as it may, every attempt and step forward is important, every confrontation with the truth and a problem is worthy of respect. In our country, it is very difficult to deal with, say, documentary, engaged theater, criticism, and it seems to me that we mistakenly believed that it was solely due to some political obsession... I think the key problem is personal comfort, fear of mistakes, condemnation, criticism, inability to face oneself. As if there is some unwritten rule that everything we do must be top-notch, it doesn't have to be, on the contrary. When we get rid of that burden and complex of higher values, maybe we finally turn to ourselves, and what is this engagement, changes, confrontation. I believe that only from that can something good be born. Perhaps something beautiful is created from comfort, but not necessarily useful.
Are there any hints that the play will be performed in Montenegro in due course? Also, is there anything you are currently working on that you would like to announce on this occasion?
I must say that already last year the secretary for culture and sports of the Capital City of Podgorica was interested in this series of ours, that interest still exists and comes from some other addresses. I hope we will manage to match the dates, I think it would be good and important to see at least this part about Yugoslavia in Podgorica. As for the theater in Montenegro, I have two interesting projects waiting for me after a long time. I look forward to them, they will come as a kind of respite. There are, of course, "Women of Montenegro", Olivera Todorović and I are expanding our team, strengthening forces and activities together with "Montenegro coloring book", Adrian Husić and Studio Ribizla, the memory game "Women of Montenegro 3" will be released soon..., and these are some of the things that fill me and make me endlessly happy.
Is there anything you would like to add or tell the readers?
Step out of your comfort zone and dare!:)
It is a special experience to play for the people we interviewed
It is clear what the reactions of the profession are, and how the audience reacts?
As for the reactions of the audience, I can tell you that in addition to the award the audience gave us in March, we have various reactions from each performance, from laughter to tears, pride. We play for a maximum of 80 people, very often there are more, and some (like during the tour in Berlin) watch the play or at least some parts of it more than once. A special experience is when the people we interviewed, expert consultants or in the case of the play "Fight", the family of Vida Tomšić and Franc Novak, through whose biographies and documents we talk about Yugoslavia, are in the audience.
From an outsider to a hit project
How much do all the recognitions that you have won as part of the team of this play mean to you, either as artists in a collective or individually, but also as a Montenegrin artist on the "foreign" stage?
When we started working on this project more than two years ago, our thoughts and energy were focused on collecting materials, experiments, and overcoming various obstacles that appeared during this long process. Awards were not part of our focus, however, after each separate premiere, it became clear to us that we had done a good job. Which was shown immediately in October after that big omnibus premiere that took place as part of the "Mesto žensk" (City of Women) festival, which was followed by invitations for international guest appearances, festivals and competitions. In a very short period of time, from a kind of outsider from the "off scene", the play became a kind of hit project. Before the aforementioned awards, at the "Slovenian Drama Week" festival, we received, for us, a very important audience award for the best performance at the festival, and a jury award for an innovative performative approach to a sensitive topic. In the meantime, separate segments (performances/lecture performances) received invitations to perform in Frankfurt, at the Hau Festival in Berlin, Trigger, Zoom, Bitef... In addition to the awards, what I am especially proud of are the good reviews and reviews in international magazines. which follow trends in European art, such as Theater der Zeit, Theater Heute, Buhne, Seestage...
I would be dishonest if I said that these awards do not mean anything to me, such important national awards are not easy to get, especially in such a strong competition and international jury. We found ourselves among the names that are already recognized and known throughout our area, among the authors who push the boundaries with their innovation.
These awards and recognitions give me hope, they indicate that the power of community is returning on the stage (whether artistic or performative), strong individuals who create collectives and within them build a safe zone of trust, creative equality, freed from vanity and complexes, directed towards creation and a common goal. Personally, it is a special honor for me to be a part of such a project that opens up some new perspectives and views both on stage and behind it.
Bonus video:
