The Constitutional Committee of the Parliament of Montenegro continued today the consultative hearings of candidates for judges of the Constitutional Court (SC).
Zdenka Perović, Medina Mušović, Snežana Armenko and Savo Rašović were heard.
In addition to the members of the Committee and interested MPs, the session was also attended by representatives of several NGOs, EU diplomatic missions and the embassies of Austria, France, Great Britain and Italy.
The President of the Board, Simonida Kordić, invited the members of that body to open a dialogue tomorrow regarding the decision on the candidates.
"I don't assume that we will immediately agree on everything tomorrow, but it is important that we start with those talks, in order to contribute to the second part of this process as efficiently as possible," she said.
Candidate Zdenka Perović, who is a former deputy of the Protector of Human Rights and Freedoms, said that this is the fourth time she is being heard before the Board.
Perović: My name is not burdened by any affair
"I spent thirty years in the state system. I started my career at the Higher State Prosecutor's Office in Podgorica... I was one of the pioneers in establishing the institution of the Protector of Human Rights and Freedoms, and I am the institutional memory of that institution... I was the head of the National Mechanism for the Prevention of Torture . See the report of the European Commission for Montenegro for 2019 in this regard. It is the first positive assessment in chapter 23. I think it is a unique result that recommends me for this institution (US)".
Perović stated that her name is not burdened by any affair, "nor any public information that could cast doubt on her integrity".
"I will not mention what it is about, you know very well. I neither took nor received anything that could indicate that I owe anyone anything. I did not ask for any rewards, but I did not expect that I would lose my job (at the institution) because of my work Protector). But let's move on. Everyone has to pay for their integrity".
Member of Parliament of the Democratic Party of Socialists (DPS), Vesna Pavićević, asked Perović what she would do to solve problems such as the fact that employees in the US have been working in dysfunctional conditions for a long time.
"Two days ago, a meeting was held in front of the US with the director of the Administration for Cadastre and State Property. But that is not enough if the Minister of Finance and the Government do not get involved. We are sending them an appeal to solve the problems in the US as soon as possible, and we will try to bring our process until the end," Pavicevic said.
Perović replied that in that case it was necessary to start from the basics, and that the meeting should have taken place much earlier.
"Other steps should have been taken in the fight for the institution. Waiting for someone to remember you... If the US leadership had a different feeling, they could have used you, and you would have accepted it, to put pressure on the executive branch. If you had let me do something two years ago, the situation would have been different there."
Member of the Socialist People's Party (SNP), Dragan Ivanović, assessed that the problem of leakage is not from yesterday.
"They want to prove to the citizens that the current government is guilty of something that has been happening for 30 years".
"I lost my job because of decisions with integrity"
He asked Perović if she was pressured at work and if that is why she lost her job.
"It was easy for me to write every opinion. I had documents, pictures, I didn't care who was from which party. Maybe life would have been easier for me too if I had accepted to do things the way they weren't. I did things the way they were, and that was it. to the surprise of the general public, because it was not expected that a state institution would bring opinions as they are. A man is a man. When he suffers torture, whatever he said, it must not happen. I am proud to have shown the international community that even in this the state has state bodies that can make just decisions".
She pointed out that there were various pressures on her.
"There is a rumor in the public - an official calls you on the phone and says make such a decision. No, that didn't happen. Maybe because everyone knew that it couldn't happen. I like to hear all the arguments and it was a little fun for me when someone he asks if someone can influence me. He can. Anyone who comes out with arguments and documents. In the US, I would have my opinion, but if a colleague comes out with arguments and documents, I will very easily change my mind. I believe that for no other reason than I remained without a job except for my decisions with integrity. I am the only UN expert from Montenegro. I would like this country to have so many experts to give up just one."
MP of the Movement for Change (PzP) Nikola Bajčetić asked Perović what she would do if she was elected as a judge and if the US made a binding decision for the basic state prosecution in the case of torture, and it did not act on it. It is about Bajčetić's case.
"There is a criminal offense of non-execution of a final court verdict. There may have been one or a couple of cases. It is interesting that this criminal offense is not prosecuted or is rarely prosecuted. There are instruments in the system that must be used," replied Perović.
Member of the Democratic Front (DF), Dragan Bojović, asked the candidate if she thinks that the judiciary was independent these years and what she thinks should be done to make it so.
Perović replied that many judges probably experienced pressure in the same way as her.
"A friend came to you and asked if you could do something. I received messages through family, not over the phone, about my work evaluations, qualifications that I was there or here... It's not that some official calls you and calls you does not know. There is a wide variety of ways in which pressure is exerted on decision-makers. Almost no one who has to make big decisions has not suffered some form of influence".
Citizens' Movement MP (GP) URA Suada Zoronjić asked Perović what contribution she would make to the functioning of the US and how she would contribute to ensuring that a constitutional appeal does not become an ineffective legal remedy.
"By just contributing to the fact that the constitutional appeal is declared an ineffective legal remedy, and not the other way around. I'm sorry, but that's how it is. In the application I mentioned for my case, I didn't go to the US, even though there is an obligation to do so by law , but I'm going directly to Strasbourg with the explanation that I didn't file a complaint with the US because it's dysfunctional. Sometimes it's more curative to diagnose and treat, than to cover it up."
"Work results should make a difference between us"
MP Jovanka Laličić (DPS) asked Perović whether it is against the Constitution to "respond to a peaceful gathering of citizens on September 4 and 5, 2021 in Cetinje, with the use of tear gas, shock bombs and rubber bullets", and what he thinks about US funding.
Speaking about the events in Cetinje, Perović said that she was dissatisfied with the behavior of the institution of the Protector and that she thought that the decisions that were made were not adequate and that they should have been different. "I think I've said enough".
When it comes to financing the US, Perović stated that one million euros is a large sum and that "a lot can be done with it."
"The way in which the budget is arrived at should be changed, in order to reduce the influence of the executive branch on the US".
When asked by Bosniak Party (BS) MP Amer Smailović whether she believes that the Constitution will be violated if the proportional representation of members of minority nations in the US is not taken into account during the election of judges, Perović replied that candidates who deserve state office should be chosen first.
"Our performance should make the difference between us. I have a friend who told me why he works - 'I don't want to be told I got the job because I'm a minority.' from him, and he was chosen because of that attribute. You need to analyze all the candidates, make a shortlist of those who deserve to be there due to the results of their work, and only then should there be that element of affirmative action".
Mušović: With two more judges, another panel would be formed, which would enable cases to be resolved more quickly
Candidate Medina Mušović, who is a judge of the Administrative Court, said that she was never a member of any political structure and that they could not have had an influence on her.
"My career is only influenced by my work and my willingness to solve every legal problem in the right way, impartially and in accordance with the Constitution... My work experience of 33 years, working in courts of various jurisdictions, gives me the right to consider that I can answer to the challenge posed by the function of the US".
MP Zoronjić asked the candidate in which cases she would separate her opinion and how she would solve the problem of the accumulation of constitutional appeals. Mušović replied that she never had a problem with separating an opinion if it was necessary to separate it.
"My opinion could not be influenced by anyone, even in the last example, these disputes that appeared in our court regarding the termination of the functions of judges. That process had an epilogue in that, before we passed the negative verdict, we had several sessions , after which we adopted a principled legal position that those lawsuits were rejected. I must say that I and my council and another colleague were not in favor of it, because we considered that the application of the provision regarding the acquisition of the right to a women's old-age pension was not in accordance with By the Constitution, i.e. the constitutional principles of gender equality, women's right to work and discrimination. I have always been of the opinion that the norm that prescribes the acquisition of the right to an old-age pension for insured women at the age of 64 is not discriminatory, but rather a privilege for women. The only way was discriminatory her interpretation".
"Transferring Institutes from the Administrative Court to the US"
Speaking about constitutional appeals, she stated that a potential solution is to introduce existing institutes from the Administrative Court into the work of the US through normative interventions.
"In the Administrative Court, there is a model work institute for similar cases. Since there are cases in the US that are based on the same reasons, perhaps it would be possible to think about a similar way of working. This would save time and enable constitutional appeals to be resolved as quickly as possible Installing an advanced program that would enable a faster search of judgments of the European Court of Human Rights would contribute to the up-to-dateness of the work... As a long-time judge, two more judges might be needed in that court (US), in order to create another a three-member panel, which would enable cases to be resolved as quickly as possible. Without deliberation, there is no resolution of cases."
When MP Bojović asked what could be done to make decisions in the US more efficient, Mušović replied that one of her suggestions was "to stimulate professional associates to process cases from home, outside of working hours".
When asked by DPS deputy Suzana Pribilović whether she faced political pressure in her work, Mušović replied that it was ruled out.
"During my work, no one asked me for anything, nor did I make any decision outside the Constitution and the law."
Mušović said that there are still cases before the Administrative Court regarding the termination of the duties of judges.
"Considering that we have already made two decisions, we have decided to finish all those cases in a shorter period of time. I do not believe that it will last more than 10-15 days. It is possible that we will decide on all those cases by February 15 ".
"The third mandate of Medenica was illegal"
When MP Laličić asked whether US judges should have a bar exam, Mušović answered:
"I don't think it is necessary for a judge to have a pre-judicial exam. That court should also be covered by distinguished lawyers and theorists, professors".
DF MP Milun Zogović asked the candidate what the evaluations of international partners about the Montenegrin judiciary are based on, and whether a person who served as president for two terms can be a candidate for that position again.
Mušović, answering the first question, said that she thinks that the evaluations of the partners are based on the first decision of the Judicial Council to decide to elect Vesna Medenica as the president of the Supreme Court for the third time.
"In my opinion, that election was illegal. The Law on Courts was clear and decisive. I would not accept the constructions that were made during her election."
"One person can be elected president only twice"
Answering the second question, Mušović said that the Constitution is clear and decisive, and that one person can be elected president only twice.
"One mandate, another mandate - I have no doubts that any different decision would be against the Constitution".
Armenko: We have a good legislative framework, but practice is lacking
Candidate Snežana Armenko, who is the deputy of the Protector of Human Rights and Freedoms, said, among other things, that the first Montenegrin judge was assigned to work at the European Court of Human Rights.
"As a long-time judge, I tried to apply both national and international law, so that many of my decisions contain direct reference to the standard of the European Court... As the Deputy Protector, I issued numerous opinions that contain all the elements of the judgments of the European Court, both in terms of conditions of admissibility, as well as merit, which enables me, if you choose me, to contribute in full capacity as a US judge".
MP Bojović asked Armenko what he thinks is necessary to do in order for the US to be more effective.
"We have a good legislative framework, but there is a lack of practice... In order for something to be respected, there must be clear orders. We must have more precise explanations regarding the execution of decisions. There is a lack of enforcement mechanism... Delayed justice is injustice".
She says that it is necessary to consider the possibility that, when submitting candidacies for US judges, a recommendation or proposal from certain professional organizations is required that the candidate is recognized as a person with professional and moral integrity and that he already has the authority required in the branch.
MP Laličić was interested in whether Armenko considers it "an open discrimination against Montenegrins that the management of RTCG forbade a journalist to use a shortened version of the Montenegrin language in a news broadcast" and how she interprets the proposed changes to the Law on the State Prosecutor's Office, which "try to turn the current situation into a situation indefinitely". .
"Those questions show that a functional US is necessary. It would be very unprofessional for me to give constitutionality assessments from the position of a candidate. I was informed about both cases through television. In order to give you a reasoned opinion, I have to establish all the facts and circumstances. As for the first question , I don't know the facts, but I think that a case has been formed before the institution of the Protector, and I would not be able to comment on that. As for the second question, I think that introducing new permanent solutions for the introduction of acting institutions is not a good solution for all laws. A consensus should be found , and to fill positions in a legal and constitutional manner, and not introduce a state of emergency - not only in the prosecution, but in any institution".
"The dysfunctional US has already caused certain serious consequences, and will cause far-reaching consequences if the election of judges is not approached"
Armenko assessed that there is no effective legal remedy available to citizens to speed up the proceedings before the US, and that the Law on the Protection of the Right to a Trial within a Reasonable Time suffers from ineffectiveness before the US, and that it is "in a paradoxical situation that it violates the right it protects".
"I found a violation of the right to an effective legal remedy, and the statement of the US was that we are not competent and will not cooperate in that work in the future. If I am a judge of the US, of course I will work on cooperation with all institutions, especially with the Protector, because we are on a common task".
When MP Zoronjić asked if she thought that citizens' rights were violated because their will was not respected in the local elections, Armenko answered:
"By calling elections and not electing judges, you make the voting rights you guarantee ineffective. A dysfunctional US has already caused certain serious consequences, and will cause far-reaching consequences if the election of US judges is not approached. At one point, the European Court may say that the state of Montenegro has violated its positive obligation to protect the rights it guarantees. We took this on not only in the Constitution, but also in Article 1 of the European Convention," she stated, adding that she believed that judges would be elected and that "a consensus would be found and the seriousness understood situations".
When MP Pavićević asked whether she dealt with the issue of pollution and whether the institution of the Protector reacted, Armenko replied that there is a noticeable influx of cases with possible violations of the right to environmental protection.
"In order to be able to get protection, you have to start the protection mechanisms, to use the means to be able to say that an injury has been committed. For this reason, I could not say that there is an injury without any action being taken and no means being used to try to to protect rights".
Answering the question of Democrat MP Momo Koprivica about the positive and negative sides of the US initiating proceedings on its own, Armenko said that the US is the guardian of the Constitution and constitutionality and legality, and that therefore it must be given the opportunity to initiate proceedings itself.
"From 2015 to 2020, in only 14 cases, the US initiated proceedings on its own initiative. The US would use a nuanced and well-founded intervention to choose the laws where it should react. Those laws where the circumstances indicate the importance of reaction - perhaps those laws that open up important issues for internal order, politically important issues...".
Rašović: Citizens' trust in the work of the Constitutional Court has been shaken
Candidate Savo Rašović, who is the acting secretary of the Ministry of Sports and Youth, said that he was never a member of any party, nor were any of his immediate family members.
When asked by MP Zoronjić how he would, as a potential judge, improve the efficiency of the US and in which cases he would except his opinion, Rašović said that technical problems in the US can be solved in a short time, but that the efficiency of work is a process that requires serious work because, as stated, citizens' confidence in the US has been shaken.
"This can only be solved by serious work and commitment. There are a huge number of vacant positions of court associates. It is necessary to create a personnel plan, and immediately start advertising those positions... When it comes to exemption, it is regulated by law, so I don't think there is anything I would add. Of course, apoliticality is something that must be a guiding principle in the work of the US."
When MP Ivanovic asked how much he could help citizens as a protector of patients' rights, Rašović answered:
"A dozen of us protectors, who were appointed by the management of public health institutions, built the system on the basis of no comparative international practice. I was given a free hand by the management to organize a system that I think I will be proud of. I made the innovation that in all organizational units, on all notice boards, pasted notices in visible places that are patients' rights, and put my name and surname with email and address so that citizens could turn to me for help at any time. It was a serious process, where I gave myself a task to be on the phone line with patients 24 hours a day. I think I succeeded in that task, I was in contact with a lot of citizens and I did not allow it to take the form of mutual prescriptions. I coordinated within the limits of my authority and met all citizens."
Answering MP Pribilović's question about his motivation to run for judge, Rašović said that it is a contribution to the work of the US that can also provide advancement in the service, "which is the intention of every lawyer".
With Rašović's presentation, the consultative hearing of the candidates has ended for today, which, as announced by Kordić, will continue tomorrow at 12 noon with the hearing of Sanja Maslenjak, Jelena Ružičić and Momirka Tešić.
"Tomorrow, the day after tomorrow and on Thursday, when we should finish, after the end of the hearing, we will stay here to start talking a little, analyze the candidates and open a dialogue for the selection of four candidates that the Board will propose to the plenum", said Kordić.
Bonus video:
