Loss of humanity: Historian Dragan Popović for "Vijesti" about the genocide in Srebrenica

"It is true that all this is a shame for the Serbs, but it was a shame to do it, and once it has been done, it should not be hidden in history," wrote Vuk Stefanović Karadžić at one time regarding the crimes of Karađorđe's rebels against Muslims in Sjenica in 1809. "This is genocide, people," said Ratko Mladić, commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), to the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina on May 12, 1992, when he heard Karadžić's plan to establish an ethnically pure Serbian state in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

You could say he is a historian. Dragan Popovic His book “Loss of Humanity - Srebrenica as a Historical Fact”, which was recently promoted in Podgorica, thanks to the Human Rights Action (HRA), symbolically placed between these two quotes. In the introduction, the author emphasizes that the book he is presenting to the public is the result of many years of dealing with the recent past through professional work, activism and scientific research, but also that it is “the result of a kind of protest because few people outside the narrow circle of human rights activists are dealing with a topic that has had serious consequences for the societies in Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia.”

The topic of Srebrenica, Dragan Popović notes, has been turned into a tool of nationalisms that use it in their own way, depending on which nationalism is in question. And here, after 31 years, and on this 11th of July, on the International Day of Remembrance of the Srebrenica Genocide, and after 31 years, little has changed.

Your primary idea, as you said, for working on the book "Losing Humanity - Srebrenica as a Historical Fact" was to "systematize historically established facts about the genocide in Srebrenica." Why hasn't this been done yet?

The Srebrenica genocide has become a kind of political tool, a club with which to beat opponents, only with different goals. Serbian nationalists, but also activists against the new world order and extreme rightists around the world, use this crime as evidence that they are victims of a conspiracy and that a war of civilizations is underway. Part of the Bosniak elite, which rightly feels threatened, responds by canonizing the entire event, preventing any discussion of its various elements. Thus, the facts remain in the background, and especially the work on some aspects of the Srebrenica operation that have not been sufficiently researched, and could give us interesting results. There are always such things with such large and significant social events. I believe that this is one of the reasons why so few people are taking on the task of comprehensively presenting what happened in the Srebrenica enclave in 1995. This should change as soon as possible, we can all and must learn from the Srebrenica genocide, and this knowledge can be provided to us primarily by researchers and scientists.

“This is genocide, people,” Ratko Mladić, commander of the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska (VRS), told the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina on May 12, 1992, when he heard Karadžić’s plan to establish an ethnically pure Serbian state in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Today, 34 years later, the denial and relativization of what really happened in Srebrenica seems to be increasingly present, primarily among the Serbian public. Or is my impression deceiving me?

The Serbian public is under pressure from the narrative about the past, including Srebrenica, promoted by the regime of Aleksandar Vučić. Unlike Milošević, who did not force a homogeneous narrative about the past but allowed for a wide variety of interpretations, Vučić has a very clear policy on history. According to this version, history is a cyclical repetition of crimes against Serbs, in which neighboring nations, supported by a global conspiracy of great powers, participate. This narrative has a clear useful function for the regime. Since the Serbs are constantly threatened and threatened with attack by an imaginary enemy, their only salvation is to gather around a strong leader, to renounce democracy, because it implies dialogue and debate, and to surrender to an authoritarian government that supposedly protects them. Srebrenica is also part of this narrative. The media in Serbia, which is almost entirely under Vučić's control, do not deal with specific stories about Srebrenica that serve to relativize the crime, but use Srebrenica exclusively as evidence of a conspiracy of great powers. It is relevant when an international organization passes a resolution on genocide or when someone important from abroad announces something about Srebrenica. Then the Serbian authorities launch a campaign like the one called “Serbs are not a genocidal people”, which suggests to people the notorious nonsense that someone really thinks that genocidal peoples exist. All this seems grotesque to even the most educated and informed people, but we should not underestimate the power of propaganda. It is obvious that it is still working in Vučić’s Serbia.

A lie is being promoted.

It is interesting that as the motto of the book, highlighted at the beginning, you cited a quote by Vuk Stefanović Karadžić about the crimes of Karađorđe's rebels against Muslims in Sjenica in 1809: "It is true that all this is a shame for the Serbs, but it was a shame to do it, and once it has been done, it is not worth hiding in history." What was it that was attempted to hide from Ranke and what do these words of Vuk actually tell us from today's perspective of the genocide in Srebrenica?

Vuk Stefanović Karadžić supplied the great German historian Ranke with information about the uprising in Serbia at the beginning of the 19th century. Ranke's book "The Serbian Revolution" was based on this information. However, Vuk consciously hid that the rebels committed crimes. He later repented for it and gave us this great sentence that you quoted. But he also bequeathed to us something much more important - the ability to embrace the truth as a social value and to incorporate it into the foundations of the modern Serbian state. Unfortunately, today we mostly refuse to do this and promote lies in the name of some higher interests. I fear that this is a dangerous practice that can cost the entire society a lot. We are teaching new generations that it is permissible to lie, and this will not go without consequences. Because, if it is permissible to lie about Srebrenica, then it is permissible for anything else - someone just needs to find a "higher interest".

A typical attempt to justify the crimes in Srebrenica is to attribute an attack by members of the Bosnian Army from the protected zone on the Army of Republika Srpska. What has your research shown about this?

The Srebrenica safe zone was declared in April 1993. The previous year had been bloody throughout the entire central Podrinje, with a large number of crimes against civilians on both sides. However, after April 1993, Serbian sources recorded only two attacks from the safe zone on Serbian settlements in the area, both in 1995, just before Operation Krivaja 95. So, this is another attempt to justify the crimes. Each of these attempts has a factual answer, and I have tried to present as many of them as possible in the book. And that is one of the ways we must fight denial - by constantly insisting on sources. And the Srebrenica genocide is the most documented crime of its scale in world history. It is very easy to defend the facts when you have such a wealth of sources, someone just needs to deal with them.

From the perspective of historical facts, what was the role of the then Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in carrying out the genocide?

There is no evidence that the leadership of the FRY participated in organizing and carrying out the genocide. However, this does not mean that it does not bear any responsibility. First, there is evidence that certain units of the Serbian DB, or at least under the control of that service, participated in the executions, which was even recorded on camera in the case of the Scorpions unit. The heads of the Serbian DB were convicted in The Hague for this, although not for genocide. Also, until August 1, 1995, the Serbian police were turning back Bosniaks who managed to swim across the Drina River, and most of them were killed. Last but not least - the entire war, including the genocide in Srebrenica, would not have been possible if it were not for Milošević's rule. Serbia and the FRY fully financed Karadzic's enterprise, paid the salaries of VRS officers, armed and logistically assisted that army... So, although there is no evidence that they shared genocidal intent, Milošević and the people at the top of the FRY are certainly responsible, some of them criminally, and all of them politically and morally, for the crimes in Bosnia and Herzegovina and for provoking war in that country.

Is there and what is the role and responsibility of Montenegro for what happened in Srebrenica?

There is no evidence that the Montenegrin leadership participated in the genocide in Srebrenica. However, as still loyal allies of Milošević at the time, they had access to documents of the Supreme Defense Council, they knew at least after the genocide that it had occurred, and they participated in the cover-up and denial. There are also transcripts showing Momir Bulatović making suggestions on how to arrest Serbian refugees and send them to the front. Many of these people were killed, and a significant number of them also participated in the Srebrenica genocide. Bulatović actively participated in the discussion, but he was not the only one present, but sat at those sessions together with Milo Đukanović and Svetozar Marović. It seems to me that the entire team bears political and moral responsibility for the war. However, this must not serve to relativize Milošević's responsibility. Not everyone is equally responsible, and the false equalization of guilt according to the principle of "whoever divides us, please" also serves to relativize and achieve daily political goals.

Victims are digging into their wounds

Speaking of responsibility, have you come across any new facts in your research about the role of international forces and what we call the "international community" in the events in Srebrenica?

The role of the international community in the entire Bosnian-Herzegovinian war, including the Srebrenica genocide, is very complex. First of all, because the very construct of the “international community” is largely invented. There were numerous states involved that had their own interests, policies, preferences, ideas on how to resolve the conflict, and the like. Most of them were taken aback by the war itself, and especially by the scale of the crimes. At the same time, there were struggles for a new world order, after the fall of the Eastern Bloc and the end of the Cold War. Bosnia and Herzegovina was therefore often the subject of exploitation and trade, which also had consequences for the course of the war. There is responsibility on the part of key Western states for failing to prevent the genocide. Of course, there are numerous explanations for why this happened, but it seems to me that there are no good justifications. The Dutch Battalion in Srebrenica, as well as the Netherlands itself, ultimately bore the lion’s share of responsibility when it comes to the international community, but they were left to confront the VRS on their own, for which they had no mandate or approval from their superiors. I think that responsibility for not preventing Mladic's forces should be more evenly shared among Western countries.

Can we today see all the consequences of the genocide in Srebrenica? Have we managed to regain at least a part of the lost humanity from the title of your book?

The consequences of genocide are not only the victims and the destroyed community that was the target, in this case the Bosniaks of the middle Podrinje. Denial or relativization of genocide also leaves very tangible consequences. The victims are dug into their wounds, the entire community is humiliated, and thus hatred and the desire for revenge are maintained. Relativization prepares new conflicts. The former Yugoslavia is at the same time a post-conflict and pre-conflict society, in large part precisely because the wounds are unhealed and because everyone expects the “second half”. But even when we put aside the real problem of threatening peace, the terrible consequences of genocide denial for society, especially for society in Serbia, remain. Failure to recognize someone else's misfortune and the inability to sympathize with the victims, as well as the aforementioned glorification of lies in the name of a higher interest, together constitute a bomb at the foundation of Serbian society. That bomb will explode through violence and the collapse of the value system, which is already happening. All that remains for us to do is fight, each in our own way, to stop the process of decay as soon as possible.