Emotions in Polish political life are under attack. Given major domestic political and social turmoil, including a general election in the fall, as well as broader geopolitical realignments, 2023 could be a watershed year.
Since the beginning of Russia's general invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Poland, the largest frontline state of the European Union, has come to the fore. Criticism of the anti-democratic behavior of the populist right-wing government, including its politicization of the judiciary and public media, has been silenced thanks to Poland's central position in the logistics of channeling Western arms and other military aid to Ukraine. However, while the ruling Pravo i Pravda (PiS) party has used this role to free itself somewhat from EU pressure, its efforts to tighten its grip on government could lead to an internal showdown.
Irena Grudžinska Gross, a professor at the Institute of Slavic Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences, discussed the recent events with the leader of the "Solidarity" movement and the editor of the newspaper "Gazeta Viborča" Adam Mihnjik.
IGG: The Polish government is setting up a commission to investigate "Russian influence" ahead of the fall general election, which many see as a direct effort to disqualify opposition leader Donald Tusk. In response, all democratic opposition parties, as well as hundreds of thousands of Poles, protested the "Tusk Law" on June 4. Can we expect these groups to unite before the elections?
AM: Yes, everyone who participated felt that it was the biggest demonstration at the beginning of 1989 - that is, since the fall of communism in Poland. The PiS party wants to establish a body modeled after the Committee on Un-American Activities of the House of Representatives and the McCarthy hearings of 1950-54 in the United States - only their version is more primitive and barbaric. In fact, it is reminiscent of the fascist or Bolshevik methods of the 1930s. However, while the demonstration was an expression of support for the alliance of democratic parties, it is unlikely that they will agree on a common electoral list. The idea is that regardless of who wins the most support - Tusk's Civic Platform, Szymon Holovnia's Coalition with the Polish People's Party (PSL), or the so-called Leftists - everyone will vote to form a government with the others. In that sense, it was a demonstration of unity and diversity.
IGG: Will the government commission really reveal "Russian influence" or is it just an excuse to control the election?
AM: That's pure McCarthyism. When Stalin declared war on international Trotskyism, anyone could be a Trotskyist. No evidence or legal procedures were required. The same principle applies to this commission. There are no concrete criteria that those nine arbitrarily chosen people use to determine whether someone was influenced by Russia. It is a Stalinist absurdity. The purpose is to cloud public opinion, and to terrorize and destroy the political opposition. We saw the same tactic in Vladimir Putin's Russia where opposition leader Alexei Navalny was barred from running for president due to a conviction on trumped-up charges. We have also seen this in Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Turkey, where the popular mayor of Istanbul was banned from politics last year. We have also seen it in Belarus, where those who oppose Alexander Lukashenko end up in prison. This is clearly a strategy pursued by authoritarian leaders. Now under the guise of fighting against Putin, PiS leader Jaroslav Kaczynski is trying to introduce Putin-style political mechanisms in Poland.
It is dangerous to judge every Russian
IGG: I suppose you can also be accused of "Russian influence", given your earlier statements against Russophobia. What do you think about the United Nations Security Council meeting on "Russophobia" that Russia requested in March? Was historian Timothy Snyder right when he denounced the meeting as a cynical attempt by the Kremlin to portray itself as the victim, rather than the aggressor?
AM: I agree with Snyder. But I would add that while the Soviet communists accused all those who did not agree with them of "fascism", that does not mean that there were no fascists. Likewise, just because the Kremlin sees Russophobia everywhere doesn't mean it isn't a problem. We must avoid assumptions that every Russian is a thief, a coward, a bandit or a thug.
Now under the guise of fighting against Putin, PiS leader Jaroslav Kaczynski is trying to introduce Putin-style political mechanisms in Poland
It is an understandable perspective based on emotions, bearing in mind that Russian forces are killing innocent Ukrainians on a daily basis. I understand why the Ukrainians want to destroy the monuments to Chekhov and Bulgakov, just as I understand why the Soviet Jewish writer Ilya Ehrenburg claimed in 1943 that every German must be killed. But, as Stalin noted (cynically but somewhat insightfully), Hitlers will come and go, but the German people will remain. It is dangerous to condemn every Russian, just because he is Russian. That's what I'm against, and I don't think Snyder is arguing against my position. In fact, he accurately describes one of Putin's propaganda methods.
IGG: You often come back to that topic. Why is she so important?
AM: It is important because Polish Russophobia is now gaining momentum again and drawing out many other traditional resentments. Poles are once again thinking about past divisions, the suppression of anti-Russian uprisings and the massacre of Polish officers in Katyn. They are questioning everything from Joseph Konrad and Jan Kucharzewski's criticism of Russia to the plane crash that killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski - Yaroslav's twin brother - in 2010. According to one conspiracy theory, the plane crash was not a coincidence but a prelude to Russia's aggression against Ukraine. Such claims are absurd, but they have been revived by Russian barbarism in Ukraine. While Poland's attitude toward Ukraine has long been characterized by a certain sense of superiority, its anti-Russian sentiments reflect a more complicated mix of contempt and fear. Although Poles look down on Russian culture, we are also aware that Russia can trample us.
IGG: So you are saying that there is continuity between past and present Russian actions?
AM: Yes, there is a certain continuity and now Russian academics are searching Russian history to understand what Putin wants and how he managed to triumph over the democratic forces.
IGG: But those forces have always been a minority in Russia, haven't they?
AM: Under a dictatorship, those who publicly raise their voice for freedom are always a minority. After Hitler, the democratic movement in Germany was even smaller than that of post-Cold War Russia. Some claim that the current Russian culture is deeply rooted in the medieval rule of the Tatars. Nevertheless, Mongolia is a democratic state today. Having ancestors who lived under the Tatars does not condemn a person to slavish thinking. The forces of democracy may be a minority, but very important.
IGG: But has that minority ever prevailed?
AM: Remember that freedom came to Poland in the 1980s from Russia. Without glasnost and perestroika in the Soviet Union, there would have been no round tables between the government and the opposition, and there would have been no transformation of the system in 1989. Therefore, I would not write Russia off forever, as if it were destined to be an enslaved country. Back in the 1840s, the great Russian poet Mikhail Lermontov said goodbye to Russia, "the land of slaves and masters". There was always the potential for Russia to embrace freedom, especially when they could put that goal into words - with Herzen, Pushkin or Tolstoy. I would not slam the door on Tolstoy's Russia just because of what Putin is doing, any more than I would reduce Germany to Hitler, or Italy to Mussolini. Russia is not unique in this respect. All states contain the seeds of conflict between freedom and authoritarianism. Look at democratic France. If you look back at the French Revolution, you will see a country destroyed by feudal terror, and then even more so by Jacobin terror. Then came Napoleon who established an early version of the modern totalitarian state. The entire 19th century consisted of endless repression, uprisings, revolutions and counter-revolutions. Even today, there are reconstructions of totalitarian thinking in French opposition figures such as the rightist Marine Le Pen and the extreme leftist Jean-Luc Melenchon.
Under a dictatorship, those who publicly raise their voice for freedom are always a minority
The Church is on the defensive
IGG: Catholicism remains an important political force in Poland - more so than in many other European countries. What is your opinion of the Vatican's stance on the war in Ukraine, especially Pope Francis' May 2022 claim that "NATO barking at Russia's door" likely contributed to the conflict?
AM: I do not agree with the position of the Vatican at all. I am afraid that we are witnessing the bias of a pope who originates from Latin America and possesses a certain anti-Americanism of that region. The statement about NATO barking is, after all, an old anti-American cliché.
Francis wants to be a peacemaker and a bridge builder, which means he cannot take sides. Pope Pius XII took the same approach to Hitler, and today hardly anyone defends him.
IGG: What position did the Polish church take?
It is completely pro-Ukrainian and I welcome it. However, in today's Poland it is easy to be pro-Ukrainian. The church's position on other topics is problematic. For example, when Lukashenko brought refugees from the Middle East to the border of Poland and Belarus, the church tried to do the Christian thing by calling for the establishment of humanitarian corridors. At the same time, she did not condemn Kačinjski's statements in which he linked refugees to parasites, nor did she ever condemn hate speech against the LGBT population. One of the biggest themes is actually that the church is going through perhaps the biggest crisis since the Reformation - and not only in Poland.
IGG: It seems to me that the church still has a huge influence on the government in Poland. Since 1989, she has amassed even more wealth and influenced legal issues, education and other areas. Religion is taught in almost every Polish school.
AM: Yes, but it is not mandatory. I know of schools where only 10 to 20 percent of students attend religious education classes. The worm wants power, but is on the defensive. It has power in the sense that it is associated with the ruling party. However, any hope of the Church to deepen its influence on the government ended in 2007, when the secular authorities deposed Stanislav Wielgus, the archbishop of Warsaw. The Church will continue to weaken, and its more sober members are already aware of this.
IGG: Is the reason for the departure of believers?
AM: Yes, and that decline is dramatic. Seminaries are closing and there is no longer a mass exodus to the priesthood, and the reason for this is the recent financial and moral scandals. The revelations about pedophilia were a horror story. They were in the USA, Germany, Austria, Ireland and Chile, and now they are also arriving in Poland.
IGG: Yet you persistently defend the legacy of Pope John Paul II.
AM: John Paul II and the church are two different things. It would be absurd to reduce his legacy to a supposedly weak response to moral scandals. He was a remarkable man and, like all of us, he had good times and bad times. I know how much I personally owe him, how much Poland owes him, how much the world owes him. I will defend him with all my heart.
IGG: But doesn't the recent documentary directly implicate John Paul in efforts to protect priests suspected of pedophilia during his time as Archbishop of Krakow?
AM: I don't know much about the subject; but from what I've seen, the evidence isn't very convincing. Where some see priests being moved to different parishes for a cover-up, I see an attempt to open up the Catholic Church to political opposition. Krakow was not comparable to what was happening in Warsaw. Of course, I didn't like everything John Paul II said or did - especially when it came to statements about sex. But I'm not Catholic. In the end, I focus on what is most important to me: that he is on the side of freedom and courage.
The bishops stick to PiS because that party controls the levers of power. But he will pay a high price for supporting the government's draconian anti-abortion legislation
IGG: Let's go back to the wider crisis of the church.
AM: It is already there and will only get worse because there is not much questioning among the bishops. I foresee the collapse of that institution into intellectual impotence. During the interwar years and during the German occupation, the Polish church was a stronghold of patriotism. And then until 1956, it was the only institution that was not completely dominated by the communists. The church still preached the gospel, not the writings of Stalin or the Polish communist leader Boleslaw Bjerut. However, after 1989, the church perished in the world of the "free market of ideas".
IgG: She seems to have a good understanding of capitalism considering how rich she got.
AM: She only understands feudal capitalism. Now the most important thing is whether the church can find a way to respond to new challenges. Most of the bishops are approaching the age of 80. People at that age rarely change their attitudes or adopt new ideas unless they are faced with a major disaster like war or a pandemic. I think they stick to PiS because that party controls the levers of government. But he will pay a high price for supporting the government's draconian anti-abortion legislation. Such doctrinal rigidity is not sustainable in today's world.
Putin must be ousted
IGG: I recently read that Hungarian President Viktor Orbán, in a meeting with his economic advisers, considered the possibility that Russia's defeat in Ukraine could shift the center of gravity in Europe towards Poland. What do you think about such predictions?
AM: There is no basis for such far-reaching conclusions. Orban is another victim of historical mythomania. He wants to recover what Hungary lost with the Treaty of Trianon, at the end of the First World War. If Ukraine were to be broken up, he would set his sights on the city of Uzhhorod. That is why he maneuvered towards neutrality at the beginning of the war. It was a disgusting display of his shamelessness. Orbán's megalomania will drive Hungary over the cliff, yet he has the support of a nation traumatized by Trianon. I was afraid that something similar would happen in Poland, that some might have plans for Lviv and other areas lost after World War II. So far, this has not happened, perhaps because the same logic would dictate that Sechin, Opole and Wroclaw be returned to Germany.
IGG: I was most shocked by Orbán's suggestion that European borders have become movable, as if the map of Europe could be redrawn.
AM: You will find such attitudes primarily in Hungary - and perhaps in Serbia, Kosovo and Catalonia. Honestly, I don't see that being possible.
IGG: So what would you consider a victory over Russia?
AM: The outcome would have to mean pushing Russian forces out of the Donbass, ousting Putin and engaging in serious talks about Crimea. Of course, Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 was a violation of international law. But if Putin had not attacked Ukraine more than a year ago, the world would have come to terms with that change of map, because there were no strong anti-Russian tendencies in Crimea, but quite the opposite. But now, the return of Crimea to Ukraine has become possible again. As for Putin, he absolutely must be ousted. Otherwise, he can do anything - like Hitler hiding in the bunker.
IGG: What do you mean by "everything"?
AM: I do not know. But I know that we cannot agree to his extortion and aggression. History has shown us where such concessions can lead. By attacking Ukraine, Putin crossed a red line. As in the case of Hitler, negotiations with him are no longer possible.
Prepared by: N. Bogetić
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